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Revised G380
| NAA Message Board » NAA Products » Revised G380 | « Previous Next » |
| Author | Message | ||
     Swdavis Message Board Member Username: Swdavis Post Number: 30 Registered: 05-2004 |
Has anyone heard anything about the "new" G380? I am surprised that it has taken N.A.A. so long to find a new supplier for the frame since Sandy announced their split with Kahr. I would like to buy a second G380, but not until the revised model is released. | ||
| John_q Message Board Member Username: John_q Post Number: 119 Registered: 01-2006 |
Swdavis, I am a little concerned about the Guardian downtime and ominous silence from NAA. I hope the problems, warranty expenses, etc. aren't causing them to think about dropping the whole Guardian line. Another question is whether they are just finding another frame supplier or maybe making significant changes to the Guardian design. Maybe there will be a "second generation" Guardian like the "second generation" Kel-Tec P3-AT. Best, John_Q | ||
| Swdavis Message Board Member Username: Swdavis Post Number: 31 Registered: 05-2004 |
John, I was also wondering if they were going to make changes to the G380 in addition to finding a new company to machine the frames. Seems like a long time to find new machining facilities for the Pine Tree castings they purchase from Ruger given todays quality CNC shops. | ||
| John_q Message Board Member Username: John_q Post Number: 120 Registered: 01-2006 |
I agree, although bear in mind that the Guardian "frame" includes the barrel, which has to be drilled, reamed, and rifled. I have wondered if some of the Guardian problems reported on this board are due to the difficulties of producing a good rifled bore in an investment casting. I don't know if the mini revolvers are the same way or whether the barrel is made separately out of bar stock. | ||
| Sandy Message Board Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2003 |
As I suggested in my 01/07 Soapbox, 2006 was a transitional year for NAA and our manufacturing capabilities and capacities. As I first reported in April ’06, we’ve been forced to find a new manufacturing source for the machining of our Guardian pistol frames, having been abandoned by our former partners. Much to our horror, after a protracted search and having selected a new vendor for the smaller frame size Guardian, their credentials and apparent capabilities notwithstanding, the Midwestern aerospace manufacturer I earlier mentioned proved entirely incapable of satisfactorily machining this part and meeting their commitments to us. Words cannot describe my disgust with these fools and idiots at KEMCO Manufacturing in St. Louis. Our response to these challenges has been to purchase the equipment to enable us to machine these frames ourselves, thereby taking control of our own destiny regarding the timely supply of quality pieces. Sometimes, if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself and that’s just what we’re doing. For a person with a limited background in manufacturing such as myself, this has been a surprising and sobering process, and even though I was prepared for “the worst”, what we have experienced exceeded even that. Our investment has been substantial and our progress has been painfully slower than I ever could have imagined. There are many special tools that have been required to be made/built as well as many difficult machining steps that need to be executed, tweaked, retried, etc., each building upon another. If it were easy, finding a vendor to replace Kahr would have been also. There have been many challenges we’ve faced along the way, all of which we’ve met successfully but at great cost, not the least of which has been in terms of time and the subsequent disappointment that many of our customers have suffered due to tight supply. We have missed more benchmark dates than I can count and if I hear “next week” again, I think I’ll puke. Notwithstanding, I believe we will be producing small-frame Guardians (32ACP/25NAA) before the end of January 2007 and that they will enter the channels of distribution approx. 10 days thereafter. We fully recognize that the markets offers choices and, while our Guardian pistols are the “best” choices, we cannot expect our customers’ patience to last forever. Our stakeholders, including the community that participates in this Message Board, are, I feel, entitled to an explanation, which this note attempts to offer. While I’d have preferred to have waited until actual production had begun, I wanted to address the legitimate concerns raised in this thread. To further address some of the speculation in this thread, the warranty expenses attributed to the Guardian line are minimal. While some few individual pistols encounter problems, there is nothing of a design nature which needs to, or has been, addressed. The engineering of this pistol is sound and because of our ability to better manage the machining process, we expect the “new” product will be even better simply because of that. Other than the fact that the pieces are coming off of our machines, there are no substantial design or generational changes which have been, or are anticipated to be made to this family of pistols. Additionally, the limited attention given the 32H&R project can almost wholly be attributed to the priority given this machining project. The future of the 32H&R will be addressed in the February Soapbox. | ||
| Hiflight Message Board Member Username: Hiflight Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2006 |
Sandy... I am sure that I speak for all of the forum members when I say thanks for the update. I can certainly appreciate the difficulties in attempting to produce a quality product in todays "throw-away" marketplace. Keeping us all informed as to the trials, tribulations, and progress toward your goal is certainly appreciated. As long as the excellent customer service provided by NAA doesn't suffer, I feel that we can all patiently anticipate the good things to come in the future! Again, thanks for the update!!! | ||
| Swdavis Message Board Member Username: Swdavis Post Number: 33 Registered: 05-2004 |
Thanks for the information, Sandy. We all wish you the best with this process. When the G380 is ready I am ready to purchase one. Good luck. | ||
| Teacher Message Board Member Username: Teacher Post Number: 47 Registered: 04-2006 |
Sandy, I do not know what your potential market is in CA., although I do know state law and regulation interpretation leave much to be desired. Would you consider going through the motions again to sell the Gaurdian series in CA? | ||
| John_q Message Board Member Username: John_q Post Number: 122 Registered: 01-2006 |
Sandy, Thanks ever so much for your prompt and detailed answer. I'm very glad to hear that the Guardians will be back. And yes, tooling up a new production line is *not* easy. Sounds like you're getting there, though. Another example of NAA's outstanding customer relations. Not every day you ask a rhetorical question and get a reply from the owner of the company! Best regards, John | ||
| Billinpittsburg Message Board Member Username: Billinpittsburg Post Number: 1137 Registered: 01-2003 |
I can appreciate Sandy's frustration in getting his in-house capabilities set up, and am glad to read that NAA is heading in that direction. I totally agree that NAA's pocket semiautos are the best. The number of problems I read about on KTOG with the P3AT and PF9 are insane, even though I am happy with my own P-32. I waited about 6 months for the Rohrbaugh I briefly owned. The only good thing I can say about my experience with that unreliable piece of junk is that the manufacturer graciously agreed to take back the gun and refund my purchase price. Meanwhile, my Guardian .380 has been, for the past 4 years, the gun on my person more than any other gun I own. Often it is the only gun I carry. Other times, it is a BUG to a Glock 9mm. It has the single most critical criteria of a defensive weapon: it works every time. In terms of the time taken to get production up and running, I look forward to NAA's being able to accomplish what it has in the past. However, keep in mind that people wait 6 months for Rohrbaughs. People also wait 1-3 years for Seecamps. With this in mind, NAA has done quite well. | ||
| Sombrerro Message Board Member Username: Sombrerro Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sandy and I have known each other for years now...had many a conversation on different topics...some more pleasant than others...but he is...bottom line... my friend and confidant. I find our friendship...not so much based on what he or I thinks.. it certainly differs.....my wild fowl mouthed intemperate,passionate nature in running a gun based business...or his more temporal quiet approach..better deal in the end....perhaps? To me...it's the same end...let's build some guns and holsters! Sandy and I have always been honest with each other..."he can count on this" and here's what I think...based on my own experience and everyone who buys from me. Shorten a Black Widow about a 1/2" for pocket carry and you will have a new best seller. Screw investing in casting complicated SS frames for the heavy .380 Guardian....injecting molding a much lighter poly frame set up...is the way to go. When you make me king..that's where I'll go!  The .32 H&R revolver?...a prototype of any idea.. is just that...awkward..square and un-refined. My bet..the weight will come down...lines and finish will be refined and he will have a beautiful handgun. Lot of poop on why this gun should be a bigger 9mm or .38 Spl. and it's a good argument...however....think about this.... "though it's not a 9mm...it is also not a .22 mag...which honestly leaves us...somewhere in between...center fire..hand loaders and ammo manufactures...a lot to work with...powder, bullets, primer and size. NAA is a tough little company....a history of "outperforming her size" for many years. If she ever becomes a stock option...perhaps I'll stop buying those 1/2 oz. South African Krugerrands and invest in NAA..."pure gold!" Best, Ronbo | ||
| Bill_deshivs Message Board Member Username: Bill_deshivs Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2006 |
The Guardian, in it's current incarnation cannot be made with a polymer frame. It may be possible to use cast aluminum with a steel barrel insert, though. This would lighten the guns a little but, the heavy slide required by the blowback design will still leave them heavy. The .32 H&R project should be dropped. The gun will be too long and awkward for a pocket gun. NAA serves a niche market, and the H&R doesn't fit in. I would love to see NAA succeed with a new gun, but the H&R design is not it! The Guardian .380 is entirely too large and heavy. Bill | ||
| Swdavis Message Board Member Username: Swdavis Post Number: 35 Registered: 05-2004 |
Sandy, it has to be tough running a company when your customers have very different ideas concerning your products. The G380 is not perfect, but it is a good product that serves a real need. And, I agree that you need to get it back into production as-soon-as possible without major changes. You certainly do not need the added complications of trying to prototype new materials or new manufacturing methods. My recommendations would be to improve (i) quality control with existing materials, (ii) get rid of the casting marks that make the guns look cheap, (iii) learn how to machine the present castings with increased dimensional stability and straightness, (iv) improve the rifleling and (v) improve the springs and pin clip quality. Castings on many of the Kahr manufactured Guardians were machined slightly off center (something you still see with the MK9 (and other Kahr products - along with rushed machining and dull bits). All of the above recommendations are very achievable without forging new ground. These comments come from someone who has spent hours looking at and measuring a number of G380 and G32 handguns. My G32 has never functioned well and I was trying to determine the problems. Its casting were clearly machined off center and were not straight. My G380 has better machining and it functions perfectly. The G380 is heavy, but it works and it is reliable and fairly durable. The size fits the hand better than the smaller G32 and it is comfortable to shoot and easier to draw in a life or death situation. Trying to make it lighter at this point will only bring problems with durability and reliability. Anyone who has carefully examined the present castings knows they are already very (too) thin in several places. Lastly, the new Crimson Trace grips for the G380 look to be a great product and you might consider carrying them at a fair price. Regards and best of luck. | ||
| Richard_s Message Board Member Username: Richard_s Post Number: 406 Registered: 02-2003 |
Sandy: Thank you for the informational post. It will come as great news for the many of us out here who are "true believers" in the Guardian line of pocket pistols. It requires only a few changes in what Bill wrote above to explain what I think about my own "melted" and high-polished G-380: My Guardian .380 has been, for the past 5 years, the gun on my person more than any other gun I own. Often it is the only gun I carry. Other times, it is a BUG to a Rohrbaugh 9mm or a Colt 1911. It has the single most critical criteria of a defensive weapon: it works every time. As for its weight -- I have no problem with that. In fact, I've increased the weight of my "Early Bird" G-380 a couple of ounces by adding a pair of custom-made sterling silver grips. One of their benefits, other than appealing to my vanity, is to help dampen the recoil of the blowback design. And speaking of the design of the Guardians, I consider it to be the best ever offered in a pocket pistol -- extremely tough, easily maintained, and extraordinarily reliable. Thank you again for the update, and congratulations to you and your colleagues there at NAA! .................................................................................................. .................................................................................................. MR. CAMP AND I WILL START TAKING NAMES FOR OUR SIXTH PROJECT STREET GUN. WE ARE LOOKING FOR APPROX. 15 PEOPLE MAX. THAT WANT TO LEARN A GREAT DEAL ABOUT WORKING ON THEIR OWN 1911 PISTOL. I PREFER THAT YOU SELECT THE SA MIL-SPEC PARKERIZED VERSION. YOU CAN EMAIL ME RIGHT OFF MY WEBSITE, THE LINK IS AT THE VERY TOP OF THIS COMMENTARY. THANKYOU, Teddy ............................................................................................. SAT. Jan. 6, 2007 - I am adding links for all MAKAROV SERIES OF ARTICLES THAT I WROTE. SUGGEST YOU PRINT THEM NOW AS THIS IN DEPTH ARTICLE IS SUPERB. THIS IS PART 1 THROUGH PART 7... makarov part 1 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-1.html part 2 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-2.html part 3 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-3.html part 4 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-4.html part 5 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-5.html part 6 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-6.html part 7 http://actionsbytx.blogspot.com/2004/11/makarov-part-7.html |
